Re: [-empyre-] space, time and narrative

[steve guynup <exposedfield@yahoo.com>]

Hi Melinda,


> yes it is.. its a continuim .. colour sound space
> time..don't exist in separate axes.. or dimensions. 

I agreed, but I was hoping to make more narrow point.
perhaps constrasting the way we as web3d/vr developers
influence and address narrative time and those who do
video games. We (I believe bring more modalities to
bear on the matter, in part because of our generally
more abstract nature and lack of a super simple
"Faster Futurecat, Kill Kill" narrative.

> space  (or 9 or 99 as was spoken about earlier)

I'm leary of imposing a new set of symbollic values on
a modality(s)/dimension(s) - Or of interchangeabilty
like "color = time" which the other thread indirectly
assumes is always doable. It can work of course. If it
didn't we wouldn't have written/oral language.  and in
fact even some extremes make great art. 

But it does not always work.

The early Gibson Cyberspace movement failed partly
because it didn't understand the conflict between
spatial data (shading & perspective) & abstract
graphical data (as seen in charts & graphs). Second
the issue of time and narrative infinitely ups the
level of complexity from merely looking good from the
front, left or right. Combining the two is maybe not
impossible - but hasn't been done yet. 

Michael Benedikt's work here is very telling. see
Cyberspace: First Steps (MIT Press 1992ish) Its funny,
despite my issues of his end goals, his theoretical
structure is quite close to mine. 

>  i like to think about the structure of the vrml
> langhuage itself and noice
> the values which get assigned to everything...

yes, there is a wonderful completeness to the pattern
that weaves itself into that VRML world. (I personally
like applying that principle to the physical world -
makes me dizzy.)


> gorgonzola? you are the maze builder..
Not so tight and heavy maybe "Swiss" (with apologies
to Patrick)

> are using aprogramming
> language when they construct a painting...

Yes, although we often demand an action from the user,
conscious choice. A grey area of manipulation arises -
even the term of "lure" has somewhat negative
connotations. (perhaps the current political
manipulation in my country is slanting my views. This
type of skill is much more than humans can use wisely)

Still - thanks for the better thoughts:

> we make life worlds for avatars.. so we shoudld be
>generous and inventive in our architecture as they
>deserve to have a nice place to play ..:)

yes - cheers, a floor to dance upon - or mirror for
reflection...

regards 
Steve - painter, surgeon, animal trainer, time keeper




> space  (or 9 or 99 as was spoken about earlier), say
colour has a  value in x
> y and z.. they are all
> points and as points are never really fixed.. but 
> have vectors eminating
> from them on each axis.. so each  colour, or  space
> or time slice, or
> whatever.. is part of the other dimensions.. i was
> looking at toms webtracer
> work http://www.nullpointer.co.uk/-/webtracer.htm i
> imagine a colour value
> coudl look like one of these traces.. with links
> into other ajoining colours
> spaces times..
> 
> >As for constructs of game theory and scripted
> space,
> >both apply - but sometimes they leave me with an
> >uneasy feeling that I am simply building a maze and
> >treating the visitor as a mouse moving through it.
> All
> >for the purpose of my conceptual cheese.
> 
> gorgonzola? you are the maze builder.... but any
> artist does that.. a
> painter knows which way to move your eye across a
> canvas with colur texture
> and rhythm.. that might do it "intuitavely" but they
> are using aprogramming
> language when they construct a painting..
> 
> you as artist are also sometimes the user in your
> own world.. and  the user
> is never free , they may have lots and lots and lots
> of choices.. as we
> exist in computer constructed space, in fact in all
> space one coudl
> suggest, in a finity..it might be an infinite
> finity, but the  parameter set
> is still [-infinity, infinity]..
> 
> to look at anoth arean where the artist /author has 
> ultimate power..and
> none at all..who says that people use books ie read
> then in the manner in
> which they were wirtten.. i often skimm and scan and
> quote books myself,, i
> have never read "1000 Plateaus"cover to cover.. but
> i cant get more
> information than is in the book.. one book is
> limited..
> 
>  i like to think about the structure of the vrml
> langhuage itself and noice
> the values which get assigned to everything.. there
> is a gegraphic limit
> liek the valleys which contain tribes which simon
> mentioned , a time limit,
> a processor limit, a pitch limit.., . You as author
> do set gravity, do set
> collision , do set sensors and triggers , anchors,
> do set horizons, do
> controll what the user sees at a time and distance
> by Billboarding and
> LevelOfDeatils , etc, so you do set the physics of
> the world..
> 

> 
> gregorie wrote:
> 
> > I think in a certain way WE (the one who create
> the
> > interactive work AND the
> > spectActor) are "modelling" time...
> 
>  couldn't agree more.. see my other post about the
> rhythm of 3d sapce....
> its a co-operative thing, where we simulatneously
> have all control and none,
> and the spacing, regulatity, colour, etc make time..
> make emotion, make
> corporeal experience.
> 
> no one has said anything about sound in this
> senario.. which is crucial in
> time production..
> 
> melinda
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> http://www.subtle.net/empyre


=====
________________________________________________

    The reality of the building does not 
    consist in the four walls and roof but
    in the space within to be lived.

    - Laotzu


      well, Laotzu said it but I did it.

    - Frank Lloyd Wright, after learning
      his philosophy behind the Unity Temple
      had been expressed 5,000 years earlier.

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